The Middle East

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The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-01, 20:03

So this should be an interesting topic as this is one of the oldest problems on the face of this earth, the Middle East.

Now we're all most likely aware of what the origin of this conflict is and it is basically religion. Even in the old texts the Jews have been fighting the Muslims and other Pagan groups. Basically it could be summed up to "my God told me to fight your God". Now like pretty much any war ever fought, it's also about land, except this one has the religious side to it where both groups of people believe that their deity gave them their land and therefore it is theirs and there's no room for sharing. (Somebody obviously misunderstood their religion Smile )

Anyways, several thousand years later, the battle continues and the big question is why? Are they really fighting over religion like they used to. Maybe a little, but now as Thingy said before, it's fighting because people have been hurt and both sides are continually trying to avenge their hurt and dead by trying to destroy the enemy. Take it a step further and I would argue that it's even about just fighting. It's what's in their blood. I am by no means disqualifying or superseding the facts of what the wars there are about. But after several thousand years, you'd think they'd be tired of it. Well they are, but not willing to stop. The people of both sides are tired of losing family and friends and of all the prejudices and strict laws imposed upon them. I remember watching one documentary that was about the middle east and they were interviewing just some general citizens. When they were kids, they had some Muslim friends (some of them even had Muslim family members) but were split up on opposite sides of the border simply because one was Jewish and the other Muslim. And from what I could tell, the general populace is tired of fighting and they just want to live and be free.
Now this begs the question why still fight? Sure, a lot of reasons, but like I said, it's also what they know. I mean so much of both cultures are built up on this never-ending war that getting them to stop is almost like telling them to stop existing. Perhaps a good analogy would be that of smoking. You know it's bad and you shouldn't do it, yet you don't stop (and it's not impossible too). Sure, smoking has that whole addiction thing, but put that aside and it's still sort of the same. After a while, you get used to it, it becomes a part of you and part of what defines you.
And it is true that people like to fight. I mean why else would we use violence as pretty much our first resort to solving a problem (throughout history that is).

Unfortunately too, as time progressed, things got more complicated, now there's economical repercussions, cultural repercussions, alliance repercussions plus a whole bunch of other issues. But on a primitive psychological level, we like to fight and it seems to be in our blood and for a culture that has been built on this war over the centuries getting them to stop just may never happen. It defies logic, but it is what it is.
At least that's what I think (in short).

What about others? What;s your opinion of the situation in the middle east regarding Israel?

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Silvershadows on 2010-08-01, 20:47

personally I think that its best just to keep out of it, just let them fight it out until they realise diplomacy is the answer, but unfortunately this is unlikely to happen because there hatred of each other is so deeply rooted as you say they've been fighting for thousands of years. further more its unlikely that we will be able to keep out of it as with the global age which we live in what happens there affects us here.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Philly Homer on 2010-08-01, 20:50

They really haven't known anything other than constant fighting. Even when Israel didn't exist, there were tribal rivalries and such. Hell, until the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the country was still separated into various tribes and the invasion was what brought them all together to fight the Soviets.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by A-BIack_Man on 2010-08-01, 20:52

Was it israel that did the whole air raids this week? i know the U.S. backs them up, so there's another reason for the other countries to hate israel.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Thingy on 2010-08-01, 22:42

A big part of the populace on both sides don't want to keep fighting, they're tired of living in fear of getting killed by a massive, indiscriminate airstrike or a bunch of palestinians with TNT vests. But it's not that simple. You see, the ones that still want to fight (on the palestinian side at least...) have been hurt, really bad. They've probably lost one or more of their family members/loved ones, some have lost their homes to israeli bulldozers and aistrikes, some are pissed off because israel has taken their land and treated their people the way they have and some (mostly leaders, i bet) just see the conflict as a way of profiting. I don't think religion really has anything to do with this anymore. Before the string of wars between Egypt, it's allies and israel, there were alot of jews in Egypt, and they weren't being persecuted or anything. And most of the egyptian people were muslims back then.

The reason israel (and jews by association) are hated in egypt these days is the past conflicts between Egypt and Israel, not religion.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-01, 23:56

yep, pretty much what I said except with more first-hand style knowledge. This is part of what I like about forums, you can have an unbiased cultural view. For instance you having lived in Egypt has given you a view of the conflict that is more accurate compared to mine which is based on in class documentaries and media warping.

But I think you and I and all of us so far it seems have at least got the basics down. It;s kinda too bad really cause its a war that will probably never end

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-01, 23:58

Oh and remember, this isn't a popularity contest, vote for who you think will benefit the forum more, not based on things like who's funnier or things like that. Though I imagine you probably already knew that, I'm just clarifying it Smile

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-02, 11:15

They will only stop when they destroy each other, os someone bigger (Like Russia or US [I know cliché xD], or any other ) puts hands over them and forces them to stop that bloody war...

I doubt they will ever stop, because who's in power will never want peace.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-02, 11:41

As I said before, I will take the word of the Egyptian amongst us.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Silvershadows on 2010-08-02, 13:50

JPB18 wrote:They will only stop when they destroy each other, os someone bigger (Like Russia or US [I know cliché xD], or any other ) puts hands over them and forces them to stop that bloody war...

I doubt they will ever stop, because who's in power will never want peace.
that cant really work i mean look at Afghanistan, thats basically whats going on there yet many of people support the insurgents and see the Americans as the enemy, rather than helping intervention simply made things worse.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Thingy on 2010-08-02, 14:53

Made... Made things worse?! Do you even know what the taliban did to the people when they were in power? They massacred everyone who even slightly deviated from their fucked up faith. Hell, it was illegal not to HAVE A LONG BEARD. There was little that could make their lives worse, and the intervention sure as hell isn't one of them. It's also why i'm such a strong supporter of keeping our forces in afghanistan, the taliban won't be wiped out, at least not till iran and pakistan's governments die/are deposed and replaced by someone who isn't a power hungry maniac. But at least we can build up their army and the people's trust for the government (not helped by the corrupted asshole calling himself the president by the way) so they can hold the taliban at bay without us having to babysit them.

@DW Yeah, minus the whole ''it's in their blood, they don't know any better'' thing. I doubt you'd be willing to forgive and make peace with someone who murdered your family and destroyed your house... Don't think you're any better than the palestinians, because if you were in their situation, you'd have done the same.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-02, 14:55

well, I didn't say don't know any better and if that's the message that got across I apologize cause that's not what I'm saying at all.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Silvershadows on 2010-08-02, 15:20

hmm it might have been iraq i was thinking of because for the minorities life is actually worse for them than it was under Saddam but for the majority its better but yeh the needs of many outweigh that of the few
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-02, 15:25

Well, Iraq is a shitfest, but that's all because of only two countries - the US and the UK.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-02, 16:30

Well... US is there for the oil, UK is there for the oil, everyone who went into Iraq was there for the oil...

And although we're one of the countries with less troops in Afghanistan, I do support the presence of NATO in there, because, leaving that for extremists isn't exactly my idea of "ideal"...

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-02, 22:23

And on the topic of Afghanistan, it still looks like we're pulling out next year. I believe they've begun preparations to pull out regardless of the pleas of the States and whatnot. Be interesting to see what actually happens

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-02, 22:32

I don't agree with that because, we need Canada! It's not just US and UK into afghanistan! It's all the NATO! You guys leaving would cause an opening of many wholes in the allied lines! Even if the portuguese guys left, you would still have 200+ less troops in there, reducing the odds of a sucessfull campaign in there!

And if we keep things going down like they have... what will ensure us that peace in the middle east will haver be archived?

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Philly Homer on 2010-08-02, 22:37

JPB18 wrote:You guys leaving would cause an opening of many wholes in the allied lines!

I think you're severely overestimating the size of the Canadian military.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-02, 22:40

Actually, we do make up a good chunk of the active forces in Afghanistan. Overall no, we don't have a large military, but we have pretty much all our forces over there and even though other countries are in Afghanistan, we're one of the more active countries in it. Our military is larger than what most people assume, but no, it's nothing compared to the military of the states or anything like that

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Philly Homer on 2010-08-02, 22:41

Well, if Canada pulls out then more US forces will have to be sent to Afghanistan, which would be a good thing at this point. Iraq is a wild goose chase. Insurgents are there, yeah, but only cause the US is there.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-02, 22:42

And I think tht's why the States wants us to stay, after being brutally whipped in Iraq, I don't think they're quite ready to continue in Afghanistan

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-02, 23:21

Besides, somehow NATO forces have a wider popularity then US forces (on average)... I think that, if Canada left, less populars would support NATO...

And I've checked your military webpage... It's still better than ours, and we have a equivalent space to patrol (yes portuguese Exclusive Economic Region is the same size as the States due to Azores and Madeira)...

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-03, 05:48

JPB18 wrote:And I've checked your military webpage... It's still better than ours, and we have a equivalent space to patrol (yes portuguese Exclusive Economic Region is the same size as the States due to Azores and Madeira)...
I'm presuming that's because the Azores and Madeira are piffling little island groups with big territorial waters. USA has 9629091 square kilometres of land (#3 in world), whereas Portugal has 92391 square kilometres, 100 times smaller landmass.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by rrps700 on 2010-08-03, 07:18

the entire war is for money
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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-03, 10:02

Shemuel wrote:
JPB18 wrote:And I've checked your military webpage... It's still better than ours, and we have a equivalent space to patrol (yes portuguese Exclusive Economic Region is the same size as the States due to Azores and Madeira)...
I'm presuming that's because the Azores and Madeira are piffling little island groups with big territorial waters. USA has 9629091 square kilometres of land (#3 in world), whereas Portugal has 92391 square kilometres, 100 times smaller landmass.

I know I_ might have made the EEZ of portugal a *little* bit larger... But still, due to our archipelagoes (I guess this is how I write in plural), Our EEZ get's pushed a lot bigger, and if it weren't for the Spanish guys trying to steal a part of our EEZ because of Canarias (But we have another group of Islands in there, called the "Savage Islands")... (You know what I mean with the ...)

But still It's the 11th largest EEZ and when the government talks about buying new ships, the people is all "That's not needed... We don't need those luxuries, we're not at war..."

You should see (and understand) the report one of our main TV channels made to the arrival of the NRP Trident (one sub we ordered to the Germans)... Only an handfull of people with geographical knowledge talked well about this aquisition... And we've another to come...

And Portugal does needs this assets! We're involved with UE and NATO in military operation all over the globe! We can be weak compared to other countries, but we're in the Middle East, we're at Somalia, we're at East Timor, we were in Bósnia, Angola, etc, etc, etc... And then they say we don't need this kind of gear!

But yeah, we mostly need this to defend our water and exclusive zone...

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-03, 11:59

Shemuel wrote:
JPB18 wrote:And I've checked your military webpage... It's still better than ours, and we have a equivalent space to patrol (yes portuguese Exclusive Economic Region is the same size as the States due to Azores and Madeira)...
I'm presuming that's because the Azores and Madeira are piffling little island groups with big territorial waters. USA has 9629091 square kilometres of land (#3 in world), whereas Portugal has 92391 square kilometres, 100 times smaller landmass.

And Canada is the second largest landmass!! Wooo! Very Happy

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-03, 13:20

And Britain has the most ridiculously small island dependencies! Yay!

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Evil Person on 2010-08-03, 13:48

I just have my opinion reguarding this topic, The middle east doesent produce anything, wondering why, they probibly would, as there is nothing better to do with the land, the land there is a waistland, its all deseart, my first problem is 1. Who would want to live there, my second problem is 2. Why keep fighting, you are only hurting yourselves, and hurting america in the procces becuase our stupid presidents wont pull our troops out and start with jobs here so we get our econamy back, but thats not the point, i dont really care who has the land, and i dont think they do anymore either, i think that they have been fighting so long, they wouldent know what to do if they diddnt have a war.....well..thats all i have to say about that.

Edit*: its like us on the DF starwars game, we couldent just sit there and talk about the universal travel system, it got boring, we needed something interesting, i know thats not an excuse, but after a while we got so entangled in war....
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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-03, 13:51

They do produce... OIL! And that's one of the origins of their problems... Along with their unstable religions...

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Silvershadows on 2010-08-03, 14:06

this may seem kinda stupid but have you guys seen the south park episode where there in the future and all atheist but still fighting anyway the point that was being made there was that humans will fight about anything, it's in our nature we even do it in the west but we are kinda more civilised about it using words instead of guns.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-03, 15:02

Der Mittel-Ost es kaput?

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Philly Homer on 2010-08-03, 15:06

Ja!
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Re: The Middle East

Post by Thingy on 2010-08-03, 17:21

There's actually alot of good farmland there, and there might be some minerals too.

And if we'd go by the logic that if a people has had too much war, it'll be ''in their blood'' and they wouldn't know what to do if there wasn't a war, europe should be on fire. We've probably had more and longer lasting wars than anyone else in the world. We started the two world wars, and even before then, war was a very common thing here in Europe. Hell, Europeans have gone to war against each other and the natives on every continent on the planet! But we don't go to war anymore, except for a little peacekeeping here and there. The reason they're still at war with eachother is israel's desire for more land, and the palestinians hate towards israel. If they managed to end the war, i bet they could make palestine a pretty good place to be with a little help from the western world.

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-03, 17:42

But still there are more places besides the middle east were there is war... Africa is one of them... And sorry if I sound a bit racist, but... Those Black Dudes are always hanging around with katanas and slicing each other for nothing!

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Shemuel on 2010-08-03, 18:08

JPB18 wrote:But still there are more places besides the middle east were there is war... Africa is one of them... And sorry if I sound a bit racist, but... Those Black Dudes are always hanging around with katanas and slicing each other for nothing!

Way to mix up Japanese and Africans, Joao. I'm presuming you mean machetes?

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-03, 18:58

Yup xD...

Anyway, War and Conflict is deep into mankinds blood... We, in the Western world, might say we're in peace, but here at least, we see polititians using even the smallest of things into a weapon to gain more votes!

C'mon that's as stupid as nonsence, but yet, people don't notice that -.-

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Philly Homer on 2010-08-03, 19:02

And there's a difference between taking lives and taking votes and stuff. After all, you lose you life in war, but you only lose your confidence and get your feelings hurt in politics. There's political assassination too, but let's think positively (delusional?) and say it doesn't happen in civilized countries.
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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-03, 19:14

There is? If polititians were decent, maybe many wars could be avoided... If people had decent information, many of those polititians wouldn't get as far as they got...

And in the middle east, information and beliefs are mixed, and it is hard to mess with either one of those...

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Re: The Middle East

Post by Darkwing on 2010-08-04, 11:52

Philly Homer wrote:And there's a difference between taking lives and taking votes and stuff. After all, you lose you life in war, but you only lose your confidence and get your feelings hurt in politics. There's political assassination too, but let's think positively (delusional?) and say it doesn't happen in civilized countries.

*cough*Kennedy*cough*

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Re: The Middle East

Post by JPB18 on 2010-08-04, 13:29

Darkwing wrote:
Philly Homer wrote:And there's a difference between taking lives and taking votes and stuff. After all, you lose you life in war, but you only lose your confidence and get your feelings hurt in politics. There's political assassination too, but let's think positively (delusional?) and say it doesn't happen in civilized countries.

*cough*Kennedy*cough*

Truth ... Even if true ...

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Re: The Middle East

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